From: Jay_Brandt-RZEX6@APRDLGTR.SPS.MOT.COM (Jason Magnus)
Subject: ADMIN: Violence in CP Genre
Date: 9 Jul 93 16:25:14 GMT
Followup-To: alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo

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Hey, Jay old buddy - could you possibly do me a favor?  The Mighty
Walrus Slayer, who cannot post, sent me this and asked me to post it
for him.  Trouble is, I can't post right now, either, my access to my
news host currently being broken.  Could you possibly post it for him?

I'd appreciate it if you could also post a note to the effect that,
due to my current posting difficulties, "Symbiosis" will be interrupted
until such time as I can obtain alternate news access, at which time
I will continue with part 2, "Hybrid Dreams".  (Expect me to have a
new email address, or possibly several new email addresses.  Hopefully,
a new job, too.)

Anyway, here's the Walrus Slayer's opus:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

A summation of my comments on violence in C-Punk and others replies.
******************************************

01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
My winge was about the fact that everybody had hi level offensive hardware
in Cyber-punk stories.
Why didn't the cops do something?
Where did they get them?

I was glad to get replies off NEWS and email to me.
Here a summary of it all.

A note: In most places where I say 'THUG' you can probably also insert any
CP character. esp player characters in RPGs


The people with guns are:
The cops.
The corp cops
The corp security guards
The corp merc armies.
The real army
Most corp personel for protection.
Most criminals.
Virtually everybody else.

Why?
"The function of the police in Corporate America is to solve crimes, not to
prevent them. The corps keep their own security forces and mercenary troops
for enforcing the peace in the areas they control."

If you're in a corp zone if you have a gun and are a corp employee you're
probably allowed to have it.
If you're in a corp zone with a gun and you're not allowed to have it. Your
naughty and corp security and cops will ask why if they catch you.
So in a corp zone, be allowed to have a gun or dont get caught.

If you're not in a corp zone and you have a gun no matter who you are nobody
really cares. Corp cops won't ask you about it. Not in their area, who cares?
Normal cops don't have the time to ask you about it. They only care once you
cannon someone. Police presence outside corp zones is virtually non existant.
Out a corp zone carry any gun you like, as long as it is not obviously illegal, 
carry it in the open if you like. Very few will care.

No matter where you are use of a gun is not such an easy thing.
Even if outside a corp zone if a corp employee is fragged the cops will chase
you. If you cannon a squatter, if no one cares and no one notices it in the
act very likely no one will chase you, unless the cops are bored.


Where?

Guns are relatively simple to obtain. In todays society guns are easily
accessable (esp in USA). A large variety can be obtained legally. Some may be
reduced power miltary systems obtained legally then modified back up to their
full effect.
Corporate employees probably carry legal weapons, esp when outside of corp
zones.

In third world countries military hardware is easy to get, esp in warzones.
These can be smuggled out and sold on the black market.

Another source of hardware.
A lot of things become easier to get when the structure of society starts
breaking down - and ours is stretched to breaking point.  You want an M324
anti-armor machine cannon?  You find an underpaid Army ordnance sergeant
who's three months behind on his mortgage and fifty thousand NuYen in debt
to his bookie.

Of course, the average thug can rarely get his hands on the latest military
stuff. Small-arms, plastique, and claymore mines tends to be about the
limit.


On offensive cyberware:
Knives are basically legal. So why should cyberknives not be so?
Rippers, hand razors etc are probably not technically legal but no one is
going to worry about them.

In most CP cyberware is accepted.
This is unlikely if it is merely in use by the military and cops etc.
Cyberware would have been developed by the military, wired reflexes, muscle
replace and enhance, smartgun links, retina enhance, cybereyes etc.
But these would become commercially avaliable.
Muscle enhance for manual labour, mining, contruction, etc
Wires would mostly be for cops (a rare few) and special forces military.
But wires could also be used people in high risk areas where speed may be
needed to save their lives. eg pilots. even airline pilots after it is
found to increase safty by 70%
Cybereyes could be used for the blind and later to even replace glasses by the
rich and trendy.
Smartgun links would be probably common on all security, military and police,
they make them more efficent in their jobs but don't make them a walking
assault unit when not at their work.

Once they become part of life cyberware would become trendy. Someone may not
need muscle enhance but they're too lazy to do body building and want it easy.
Cybereyes look funky and the flat chrome eye look is in.
Wired reflexes make tennis easier.

Of course the above is for the rich but they make them more common.
Cyber Surgeons needed. Doctors are not just needed to heal the sick but to
enhance people.
Most cyberware is legal, but may need to be licenced.

Mr drug dealer or other high level crim won't be missing the fact that some
cops can dodge bullets and shoot rounds through peoples eyes at 200m range.
The crims (generally vastly superior monetary resources than cops) will be out
enhancing themselves.
These crims dont want the fact of their enhancements on police records so they
bring out their own surgeons.

Lower level thugs notice the effect of enhancements.
They spend money and get minor cyberware.
They become more effective. They get more money due being better theives or
better mercenaries for hired company work. They get more enhanced, they become
more effective, they get paid more per mission they get enhanced more.....

A large status symbol of the street samurai is how chromed they are.
A guy with wires, muscle enhance, dermal plate and a smartgun link must have
been alive awhile and in a few successful missions to get the money to get
the gear.


The thug to cop gun ratio:
> Or are CP type authors so manically depressed that they think the the
> world will be a lawless place of gore and violence with all carrying
> H&K MP15 flechette assault SMGs and no cops to stop killings at will?

"There are many people - myself among them - who would argue that this trend
has already begun.  Ask my elderly friend Rheuth, who lives on the edge of
East Palo Alto, and who needs a new roof because there's so many holes in it
from the drug dealers firing their Uzi's into the air on New Year's Eve.
There are places right here in the U.S. where every kid over 12 years old on
the block owns a gun, and half the kids over 15 own Uzis.
You see, the trouble is, police forces are funded through limited budgets...
but drug dealers can have whatever they can afford, and some of these street
corner coke dealers pull down $10,000 a week.  Cash, no taxes.  You project
trends, and by about 2010, the average street hood is going to be better
armed than the police.  Many of the drug dealers and the Mob already are."

Orginised crime would be fairly well equiped. large profits and relatively
small numbers. Eg mid to high level Yakuzza.
Low level yaks would be just thugs off the street trying to make it up. They
have to equip themselves.

Small scale orginised criminals would be very well equiped. Eg a drug dealer.
Large profits and tiny numbers, 2-10. Each may well have wires, smartlinks,
dermal armour, and top of the line guns.

Cops would be badly equiped. Low resources, large numbers.
Corp cops are in a similar boat.

However with much of the load being taken by corp cops and security,
government cops can be equiped well. They are low numbers and usually actually
investigating rather than needing to waste men and time on patrolling etc.

Corp Security would have guns and thats about it. The numbers and relatively
low importance stops the corps caring.

Military would have awesome gear. Due to rarity of full scale conflict most
are special forces types. Lower numbers but they are still the test bed for
corp technology. Top of the line on the street is probably a few years behind
the military.

Corp military (mercenaries) are not well equiped as the government. But still
good. Usually with more money per man but less access to the top gear.



Thanks to (mostly):

phils@sti.com, alaric@smurf.sti.com (Phil Stracchino)

Jay_Brandt-RZEX6@APRDLGTR.SPS.MOT.COM (Jason Magnus)

timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Tim Kuehn)

Much of the above is cut out from the aboves peoples messages.

*****************************************
Andrew Francis
Mechanical Engineering
Monash Uni Caulfield, Australia


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** END TRANSMISSION **

Regards,
Jason Magnus


From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F. Fitzgerald)
Subject: a little violence (was Re: ADMIN: Violence in CP Genre)
Date: 10 Jul 93 03:44:18 GMT


	A little violence

	Okay, so things hadn't been the best for me lately.  I didn't
come to the Chat' to complain.  I came to get blitzed.  Pretty simple
concept right?  Anyway, I guess maybe I just wasn't in the best of
moods when I sat at the stool over against the wall, where you can
swivel around and see the whole joint -- Lonny and the girls tryin' to
turn a trick, the mercs in the corner, the punks on the 'floor.  Ratz
had the drink poured and in my hand before I got comfortable -- gin on
the rocks, hold the olive; what my dad would call a martini -- and I
threw him my 'stick.  ``Take it,'' I said, ``take it all.''

	``You do not have a good day, no?  I see it on your face.
What is the trouble.''  His pink prothesis wheezed and whirred as he
setted on his elbows in front of me.

	``Well,'' I began, but I never finished.  Some guy down at the
other end started yelling for more, and I waved Ratz away.  ``Go on,''
I said, ``I'm alright.''  He gave me a searching look and went about
his business.  I settled down to mine.

	I had gotten through about half my drink when I did something
I swore long ago I wouldn't do unless invited -- I started listening
to a conversation at the Chat'.  I don't want to begin to know how
many schmucks have ended up buyin' a jar with their name etched on it
and a bunch a' black dust inside and I told myself long before that I
wasn't gonna be one of them, but that night, I didn't care.  So, I
listened.  It was pretty loud anyway.

``My winge (what's a `winge', I thought) was about the fact that
everybody had hi level offensive hardware in Cyber-punk stories.
Why didn't the cops do something?
Where did they get them?'' the first guy asked.

	``Huh,'' I said, smiling a little and shaking my head.

	``Got somethin' to say, corporolla?'' the blonde who asked
that was dressed in a black leather number that woulda been tight on
someone two sizes smaller.  Not that I thought she needed slimming,
mind you; I'm just reporting.

	``I got nothing to say,'' I replied candidly, and then my
glass somehow managed to get empty and Ratz filled me another, so I
missed the details of what the four at the table were sayin' but I got
the gist.  Seems, they were tryin' to figure out the reason behind all
the violence, guns, and cybershit floatin' around the Chat'.  Only,
the way I saw it, they missed the boat from the beginning.

	See, they seemed to think that everyone who comes in to the
Chat' does it packin' as big and as much heat as possible.  Not true.
Everyone that comes in is cyberred out.  Not true.  Most cyberware
possible that is applicable to the job.  Nope.

	Finally, I got tired of 'em, which was probably a mistake, and
decided to shove my fat ass in.  ``Look,'' I said, not tryin' to be
rude, ``you're comin' at this all wrong.  Sure there's lots of
violence at the Chat'.  I'd be a fool to deny it.  But is it
_necessary_?  Nah.  It is always here?  Nah.  You don't believe me?
Look.  A lot of wierd shit goes does down in this joint sometimes.
Some of it, I can't explain.  Magic?  Maybe.  I don't know.

	``But does it _always_ happen?  This strange shit, I mean.
Not on your life.  Only when certain people come in.  Do they come in
by the front door over there?  Sure do.  Do they get kicked out?
Sometimes, but not generally just cause the lights went funky when
they walked in the room or somethin'.  They gotta do somethin'
_pretty_ spectacular to get thrown out of this joint.  So far, I think
they've all come back if they were so inclined.

	``So why can't it be the same with big guns, hmm?  And
cyberware?  Is that what we are _really_ here for?  Guns?  I suppose
some of us,'' here I glanced over at the mercs in the corner, ``are,
but not all of us.''

	``So why are you here, mortarhead?'' a punk in a ripped
t-shirt and a green mo-hawk asked, with an offensive leer.

	``Me?'' I said, gulping the last of the gin.  ``I came for a
drink.''  I got up and walked out into the brown glow of the dirty
night.

---

Copyright 1993 by Charles F. FitzGerald.  All rights reserved.

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald |
Iowa State University | Haven't thought of one yet.
cffitzge@iastate.edu  |